One of the things I’ve noted (and I’m not the only one, I don’t think) is that online Catholic Apologists spend a lot of time making content directed at Protestants. Yet this data shows maybe they should be spending more time making content aimed at their own congregations.
We have quite a few people in my church family who were raised Catholic, and almost all of them say they don’t think they will go back because within their context they never met, talked about, or loved Jesus. Although anecdotal, I think that says something…
That certainly seems a little bit strange to me as a RC, cuz here in my parish Jesus is the center of the whole thing. And of every parish I’ve event went to
Talk about triumphalism. Your post is dripping with it. As much or more than the examples of Catholic triumphalism. Sorry to say so.
Catholics are losing ground. There are lots of ex-Catholics. That’s all true. We Catholics are not very good at keeping our children Catholic. And yet, though we lose plenty of not well formed young Catholics we DO appeal to a certain sort of Protestant evangelical that is well read and who prays. The sort that has read the whole Bible at least once. The ones who don’t go by just what pastor said about those kathlaks and their evil doctrines.
So I ask you, check out the theological acumen of former Catholics and compare that with new Catholics who were Protestant. Sure, some former Protestants will have wimpy reasons for becoming Catholic. And some will not be great examples of anything. But a lot of them, most of them, are the kind of folks who are hard to ignore. We’re skimming the cream of your crop.
Making it a numbers game we Catholics lose. But in the process we are gaining lively already formed on fire Christians. You gain too, but unformed and somewhat ignorant people who often don’t really know what they gave up to become Protestant. You get to tell them what Catholics believe, or what you think Catholics believe, because most of them never really knew.
The good news for Catholics is that some of them revert. And when we get a better pope a whole bunch of them might just do that.
Well said. Keep in mind that for the modern day protestant, it is all about numbers. I spent 20+ years as a protestant with 2 vastly different experiences in that 20 years, one which was very legalistic and one very liberal. The more I learned of church history and read the early church fathers, the more I realized what I was experiencing wasn't historic Christianity.
Plus the protestant idea of solo ( yes solo, not sola) is very appealing. The idea that the Bible teaches and says what I think it does is alluring, but at the end of the day very empty.
For most Protestants, their Jesus is very small, contained in a small book. For those who have found the ancient faith, we are still amazed at how Mary's womb was able to hold the uncontainable God.
Very interesting stats. I have witnessed many in my circles through the U.S. become much more Ecumenical, in the classical sense, through the online apologist debate world. Seems as though many Protestants are potentially dropping some vitriol towards Rome and Orthodoxy for that matter. Anecdotally, I recently attended a friend's confirmation into the Roman Catholic Church who was 1 of 20 former baptists. It was really something to witness.
I would be interested to see these figures crossed with attendance statistics. I could easily see a narrative of Christmas/Easter Catholics, particularly in recent immigrant groups (my understanding is that Latin American catechism is even worse than American), leaving the Catholic Church for a Protestant denomination, while a smaller number of frequently attending Protestants wanting to get more serious about their faith become Catholic.
I dunno if the claim is that the Catholic church is outgrowing protestantism or even growing on the whole, so much as it is seeing an increase in converts from protestantism. That claim looks likely to be true, at least stateside: https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/are-more-adults-becoming-catholic
I'm uncertain about the reliability of Pew Research's data on religion, especially given their inaccuracies regarding LCMS statistics. However, traditional Catholicism and Orthodoxy are indeed experiencing growth. The real question is: to what extent?
In America, it seems the Catholic Church isn’t experiencing overall growth. However, any growth is notably concentrated within traditional Catholicism, particularly among young men. As for Orthodoxy, measuring its progress is more challenging due to its smaller presence.
Im a convert from the evangelical church to Roman catholism. I have never heard anyone say there is a mass conversion going on. What I hear is that we are becoming smaller but more practicing. The reason you see less religious switching from Protestants is because an Lutheran still consider himself Christian even after he doesn’t even go to church or even practice. Most of my family became agnostic but they say they are Christian because Christianity is about a “relationship “ not rules. So their new age mentality can fit well within Protestantism. That is not the same for RC. The line is drawn. So cultural Catholics are comfortable saying “I’m no longer Catholic”.
Your claims are not supported by the data in the slightest. According to the same data set I looked at while writing my article, 32% of Roman Catholics said they "Seldom/Never" attend religious services. Additionally, 27% of Roman Catholics said they attend religious services "A few times a year," and 11% said they attend "once or twice a month."
Only 29% of Roman Catholics say they attend religious services "at least once a week."
Compare that to Evangelical Protestants, of whom 50% say they attend religious services "at least once a week."
And since you mentioned Lutheranism, let's look at evangelical Lutheran stats: 35% of Lutherans said they attend religious services "at least once a week" and 21% said they attend "once or twice a month."
Forgive me a sinner, I mean no disrespect in what I am about to say
The problem is that you are basing everything on a single data point. I can't speak for Catholics but only from what I have witnessed in the Orthodox church. I can attest to what I have seen with my own eyes. Not every Orthodox parish is experiencing the same level of growth. The thing is, they are all coming from Protestantism. They all have seen what is happening in their churches, read the church fathers and either become Orthodox or Catholic. They are looking for what is historic and authentic.
No doubt there are those from the Baptist, Pentecostal, and non-denominational churches who have gone for the more conservative Lutheran and even Anglican churches.
But to just go by the numbers from one source is not a good approach. When I was a protestant, we attended some "churches" that were completely packed, but it was all about the entertainment. These same churches were at times willing to admit if they did away with the entertainment 'rock concerts', most of the congregation would leave. I've seen people who came every week, but would leave early because they had a tee time scheduled. Those people would meet the above once a week attendie. Additionally, most of the people I knew then would go on vacation and never think twice about not going to church while on vacation. Whereas Orthodox and I believe Catholics would find a church to attend where they were vacationing.
From everything you are claiming, it is all about numbers with little regard for quality. I don't believe that is what you are intending, but when you keep pointing to the same thing over and over, that is what it looks like.
I don’t worship science. I don’t see stats as facts unless the sample size of such stat is like 1 million people. I instead use my God given brain and look around me. I talk to people. Most people raised Roman Catholic do call themselves Catholics anymore.
Also I should point out I never said what I was saying it’s the ultimate truth. You are the one using studies like the LGBT movement to backup your point.
You just arbitrarily picked the 1 million requirement; you seem to have no idea how sample sizes work. Then, you implied that your limited anecdotal evidence should trump tens of thousands of people across the nation being surveyed. Finally, you smeared utilizing hard data simpliciter as... LGBT?
Yeah, okay, bro.
I'll let the readers decide what they think of that.
I never said my Data is the ultimate truth. You put those words in my mouth. I also literally said the church is shrinking but becoming more practicing….. it used to be that Catholics would call themselves Catholics even if they don’t practice it . Those days are coming to an end. They are fully leaving the church. Yes. Observational science it’s stronger than statistical science. I mentioned the LGBT because that is what they do to manipulate folks. They use “statistics “ to prove everything. Look around. Look at Latin America which is where I’m from, or France. Churches are shrinking but the people staying are practicing.
And by my observational science, the church is shrinking by a lot. But you are using anti human ways of judging society like a nerd. Using stats. Go to parishes and see how is mass attendance…… shrinking in the NE booming on the south.
Hello. I was not being sarcastic in my article; I was simply seeking the truth regarding the conversion-trend claims made by a lot of Roman Catholics online. I even listed a couple of examples of said claims in the footnotes.
Claims like these are often weaponized against Protestants in apologetics contexts online, so I thought it would be good to respond to them with hard data.
By the numbers you ARE right. And it points up some real problems in Catholicland. But it misses the whole story about WHO becomes Protestant and who becomes Catholic.
I think we are entering the passion of the Church. As with Jesus many are going to leave the Church and follow easier teachings. God is allowing all of it for good reasons
One of the things I’ve noted (and I’m not the only one, I don’t think) is that online Catholic Apologists spend a lot of time making content directed at Protestants. Yet this data shows maybe they should be spending more time making content aimed at their own congregations.
We have quite a few people in my church family who were raised Catholic, and almost all of them say they don’t think they will go back because within their context they never met, talked about, or loved Jesus. Although anecdotal, I think that says something…
That certainly seems a little bit strange to me as a RC, cuz here in my parish Jesus is the center of the whole thing. And of every parish I’ve event went to
Any stats on how many Catholics become Protestant so they can get divorced and remarried or start using contraception?
Talk about triumphalism. Your post is dripping with it. As much or more than the examples of Catholic triumphalism. Sorry to say so.
Catholics are losing ground. There are lots of ex-Catholics. That’s all true. We Catholics are not very good at keeping our children Catholic. And yet, though we lose plenty of not well formed young Catholics we DO appeal to a certain sort of Protestant evangelical that is well read and who prays. The sort that has read the whole Bible at least once. The ones who don’t go by just what pastor said about those kathlaks and their evil doctrines.
So I ask you, check out the theological acumen of former Catholics and compare that with new Catholics who were Protestant. Sure, some former Protestants will have wimpy reasons for becoming Catholic. And some will not be great examples of anything. But a lot of them, most of them, are the kind of folks who are hard to ignore. We’re skimming the cream of your crop.
Making it a numbers game we Catholics lose. But in the process we are gaining lively already formed on fire Christians. You gain too, but unformed and somewhat ignorant people who often don’t really know what they gave up to become Protestant. You get to tell them what Catholics believe, or what you think Catholics believe, because most of them never really knew.
The good news for Catholics is that some of them revert. And when we get a better pope a whole bunch of them might just do that.
Well said. Keep in mind that for the modern day protestant, it is all about numbers. I spent 20+ years as a protestant with 2 vastly different experiences in that 20 years, one which was very legalistic and one very liberal. The more I learned of church history and read the early church fathers, the more I realized what I was experiencing wasn't historic Christianity.
Plus the protestant idea of solo ( yes solo, not sola) is very appealing. The idea that the Bible teaches and says what I think it does is alluring, but at the end of the day very empty.
For most Protestants, their Jesus is very small, contained in a small book. For those who have found the ancient faith, we are still amazed at how Mary's womb was able to hold the uncontainable God.
Very interesting stats. I have witnessed many in my circles through the U.S. become much more Ecumenical, in the classical sense, through the online apologist debate world. Seems as though many Protestants are potentially dropping some vitriol towards Rome and Orthodoxy for that matter. Anecdotally, I recently attended a friend's confirmation into the Roman Catholic Church who was 1 of 20 former baptists. It was really something to witness.
I would be interested to see these figures crossed with attendance statistics. I could easily see a narrative of Christmas/Easter Catholics, particularly in recent immigrant groups (my understanding is that Latin American catechism is even worse than American), leaving the Catholic Church for a Protestant denomination, while a smaller number of frequently attending Protestants wanting to get more serious about their faith become Catholic.
I dunno if the claim is that the Catholic church is outgrowing protestantism or even growing on the whole, so much as it is seeing an increase in converts from protestantism. That claim looks likely to be true, at least stateside: https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/are-more-adults-becoming-catholic
I'm uncertain about the reliability of Pew Research's data on religion, especially given their inaccuracies regarding LCMS statistics. However, traditional Catholicism and Orthodoxy are indeed experiencing growth. The real question is: to what extent?
Except they're not experiencing growth. They're shrinking year after year. The data is pretty clear in this regard.
In America, it seems the Catholic Church isn’t experiencing overall growth. However, any growth is notably concentrated within traditional Catholicism, particularly among young men. As for Orthodoxy, measuring its progress is more challenging due to its smaller presence.
Im a convert from the evangelical church to Roman catholism. I have never heard anyone say there is a mass conversion going on. What I hear is that we are becoming smaller but more practicing. The reason you see less religious switching from Protestants is because an Lutheran still consider himself Christian even after he doesn’t even go to church or even practice. Most of my family became agnostic but they say they are Christian because Christianity is about a “relationship “ not rules. So their new age mentality can fit well within Protestantism. That is not the same for RC. The line is drawn. So cultural Catholics are comfortable saying “I’m no longer Catholic”.
Your claims are not supported by the data in the slightest. According to the same data set I looked at while writing my article, 32% of Roman Catholics said they "Seldom/Never" attend religious services. Additionally, 27% of Roman Catholics said they attend religious services "A few times a year," and 11% said they attend "once or twice a month."
Only 29% of Roman Catholics say they attend religious services "at least once a week."
Compare that to Evangelical Protestants, of whom 50% say they attend religious services "at least once a week."
And since you mentioned Lutheranism, let's look at evangelical Lutheran stats: 35% of Lutherans said they attend religious services "at least once a week" and 21% said they attend "once or twice a month."
Please just take a look at the data yourself ⬇️
https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/christians/christian/
Forgive me a sinner, I mean no disrespect in what I am about to say
The problem is that you are basing everything on a single data point. I can't speak for Catholics but only from what I have witnessed in the Orthodox church. I can attest to what I have seen with my own eyes. Not every Orthodox parish is experiencing the same level of growth. The thing is, they are all coming from Protestantism. They all have seen what is happening in their churches, read the church fathers and either become Orthodox or Catholic. They are looking for what is historic and authentic.
No doubt there are those from the Baptist, Pentecostal, and non-denominational churches who have gone for the more conservative Lutheran and even Anglican churches.
But to just go by the numbers from one source is not a good approach. When I was a protestant, we attended some "churches" that were completely packed, but it was all about the entertainment. These same churches were at times willing to admit if they did away with the entertainment 'rock concerts', most of the congregation would leave. I've seen people who came every week, but would leave early because they had a tee time scheduled. Those people would meet the above once a week attendie. Additionally, most of the people I knew then would go on vacation and never think twice about not going to church while on vacation. Whereas Orthodox and I believe Catholics would find a church to attend where they were vacationing.
From everything you are claiming, it is all about numbers with little regard for quality. I don't believe that is what you are intending, but when you keep pointing to the same thing over and over, that is what it looks like.
I don’t worship science. I don’t see stats as facts unless the sample size of such stat is like 1 million people. I instead use my God given brain and look around me. I talk to people. Most people raised Roman Catholic do call themselves Catholics anymore.
Also I should point out I never said what I was saying it’s the ultimate truth. You are the one using studies like the LGBT movement to backup your point.
You just arbitrarily picked the 1 million requirement; you seem to have no idea how sample sizes work. Then, you implied that your limited anecdotal evidence should trump tens of thousands of people across the nation being surveyed. Finally, you smeared utilizing hard data simpliciter as... LGBT?
Yeah, okay, bro.
I'll let the readers decide what they think of that.
I never said my Data is the ultimate truth. You put those words in my mouth. I also literally said the church is shrinking but becoming more practicing….. it used to be that Catholics would call themselves Catholics even if they don’t practice it . Those days are coming to an end. They are fully leaving the church. Yes. Observational science it’s stronger than statistical science. I mentioned the LGBT because that is what they do to manipulate folks. They use “statistics “ to prove everything. Look around. Look at Latin America which is where I’m from, or France. Churches are shrinking but the people staying are practicing.
And by my observational science, the church is shrinking by a lot. But you are using anti human ways of judging society like a nerd. Using stats. Go to parishes and see how is mass attendance…… shrinking in the NE booming on the south.
The only article I have read so far of a supposed revival of Catholicism is yours.
Sadly you were being sarcastic.
Don’t know why.
The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ
Hello. I was not being sarcastic in my article; I was simply seeking the truth regarding the conversion-trend claims made by a lot of Roman Catholics online. I even listed a couple of examples of said claims in the footnotes.
Claims like these are often weaponized against Protestants in apologetics contexts online, so I thought it would be good to respond to them with hard data.
By the numbers you ARE right. And it points up some real problems in Catholicland. But it misses the whole story about WHO becomes Protestant and who becomes Catholic.
I agree , deep Protestants become Catholic, shallow Catholics become Protestant
I hate to call anyone shallow. Maybe just less informed. But that’s about right.
I think we are entering the passion of the Church. As with Jesus many are going to leave the Church and follow easier teachings. God is allowing all of it for good reasons
Not all Catholics are born again.
For sure! I'll shoot you an email.